Early in the morning. I mean they're a survivor. Thank you very much for being here. The best documentation we have in New Hampshire suggests there hasnt been a mountain lion killed by a hunter in this state since 1885. Good morning guys. Have it reported down in the Keene area. Infinite Scroll Enabled. We'd be inundated with scouts in the past when newspaper articles have been written about DNA and scouts. Like why would you want one wildlife. About two years ago I was at the Laconia airport on the way home from the airport and there's a big lake on one side called Lily Pond. Sort of dropped onto the SD card of a camera he'd set up out in the wild. So what counts as verifiable evidence? 1,470 likes. These young males are tracking looking for mates and if they don't find a mate they just keep moving and moving and moving. Through DNA they approximate area in the United States or North America where I was born. Rick van de Poll: 80 90. Patrick Tate: I would say well when social media first started they picked up the hoaxes became much more prevalent in the last four or five years hoaxes have died down completely. Rick van de Poll: Well education is the real important thrust of of what all of us do as biologists and Game Managers and to make sure that a things like what Sam was saying that in spite of what you believe the mountain lions will not eat your children they will not steal your pets from your backyard and they will not necessarily be seen by you unless you're extremely lucky. Sam Evans-Brown: So Tim so this cat's been been referenced a couple of times I think we should talk about it specifically lay the whole story out for folks who haven't heard the story because it's actually I think really indicative of a lot of stuff for talking about. for some excitement. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. So I know it's another unconfirmed report but you string enough of these together. They used to roam the entire continent, but have become extinct in most US states. We want answers. As I tried to get a picture of it so there was it was definitely we looked up all the pictures and it was definitely not a bobcat or anything else being it looked just like a mountain lion. Administrative Links. So nowadays we think of this in the Northeast as crazy stuff that people have a mountain lion as a pet. So for our scientists to do the lumping and whatnot. Which goes back to the Connecticut Connecticut cat and what not. Deer Bear Moose Grey Wolf Coyote Foxes Fisher Mountain Lion NH Wildlife History. 19 I mean it wasn't your idea. Someone's got to see one they're very secretive. As far as I could tell there was a positive DNA sequence coming from the scat sample Patrick. If so that's for us as an agency. OK. Really appreciate you guys being here as well. I live pretty much on the town line of Greenfield just a couple of miles down in the Greenfield. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. And in fact in 2011 when it was announced that the eastern cougar was officially extinct the reason that announcement was made is because they said really that it never existed. So it's six months of a large large predatory animal that moves great distances on the landscape that is not known if it went northeast west Salt and how many circles it did. Caller: And the more I thought about it the color of it it was definitely not a bobcat. They were able to do all that by genetics. Sam Evans-Brown has been working for New Hampshire Public Radio since 2010, when he began as a freelancer. Sam Evans-Brown: One in fact Helena silver in that sort of tome that Rick van de Poll read from at the beginning is she. County road and all of a sudden a big cat jumps out of the woods over a stone wall stood in the middle of the dirt road as I rode towards it. What kind of animal is that. Updated: 9:53 AM EST Dec 6, 2016. Peter Biello: Yeah some of what she was saying sounds like it would require getting pretty close or at least having a nice zoom lens right Sam like. Yeah I did. Give today. Patrick Tate: No downward pressure at all I think actually Sean turned up and we found the evidence there a number of people would finally say finally we can put this debate to bed. And because you know things flow downhill and I was pushed to go investigate it more and met with the individual two or three times and there was a bunch of inconsistencies about the photograph. Reviewing the evidence, the U.S. The American Lion The Saber tooth Tiger and this was the one that survived. So hard to know hard to refute if there's no interest in making up a story which many people of course do then I would respond the same way as Pat did. If you go on YouTube and search mount lion Pat you can see people patent their hundred pound kiddie like its regular mascot cat. Select image for larger view. John Holt's ideas were at first dismissed but he refused to be silent. Can you tell us about that story. The report came in from a conservation officer. Caller: And then there's the Lily Pond Road and then there's a six foot tall fence. Love hearing these stories. For over 38 years the Saddleback Mountain Lions have offered people a chance to give back to their community. Patrick Tate: Okay. We'll be right back. Pelosi story here we go. Every other Friday on Morning Edition NHPRs Sam Evans-Brown tracks down answers to questions about the environment and outdoors for our listeners in a segment we call Ask Sam.. Peter Biello: Ok. Peter Biello: Well yeah. Is that typically what was happening there. It's listed as population of least concern. So the whole media hype about how scary mountain lions are should should go away immediately and that would be that I think the major thrust of educating folks about these casualties vs.. Sam Evans-Brown: Sam go ahead. Theyve always said when we have verifiable evidence to say a mountain lion has been, is, or was in the state that wed acknowledge that and give that information out, says Pat Tate, the furbearer biologist with New Hampshire Fish and Game, who insists theres no conspiracy. People have asked me about the genetics of eastern mountain lion. So it's there was no question in my mind. But are there mountain lions living in New Hampshire? Ive received pictures of dogs at odd angles, says Tate. These were normal everyday folks. I've had a number of people call up and say I found a scout in the woods and I want it DNA identified. Peter Biello: So if they were female mountain lions here they would be more males just because that's what they're looking for. People were calling the New Hampshire Fish and Game director's office saying why are you dragging your feet on this. Caller: It had to be a mountain lion convinced I was about 30. There'd be there'd be all sorts of you know basically a lot of hassle required if that were to happen. So that's the specimen that you find going long distances. Now Bobcat is a completely different species. Patrick Tate: It's wow interesting that you brought this up because I've had people report I saw cardamom. I mean there was this one lady I remember and tough tomorrow. Yes and you want to share what you learned. So what those ranges. WMUR uLocal: On this trail cam video, an unidentified feline is spotted. The females disperse a shorter range and once they find a vacant home range they stay in that location and live there. Peter Biello: We mentioned that the eastern cougar and the Western cougar are they were separate eastern cougar believed to be extinct. Caller: Hi. Tim Yeah. So so they're just a very resilient species and they're pretty they're pretty neat. He played a pivotal role and he battled for recognition. He shifted gears in 2016 and began producing Outside/In, a podcast and radio show about the natural world and how we use it. His work has won him several awards, including two regional Edward R. Murrow awards, one national Murrow, and the Overseas Press Club of America's award for best environmental reporting in any medium. The great thing about pictures isn't the animal itself it's the background. And there's there's no evidence of that cat's movement in that entire you know 12 hundred miles stretch of its journey. And maybe it's a no holds barred nostalgia for a better world a wild or Fuller world not a world that's constrained by our boundaries and our taxes and our highways. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all along the waykilled a beaver near the Quabbin Reservoir in Central Massachusetts, left behind prints and DNA at that site, and then was hit by a car in Connecticut. Rick van de Poll: Well I didn't. Information that weed family automotive dot com sunny for today high temperatures low to mid 80s clear tonight overnight lows in the 50s tomorrow sunny highs in the upper 80s. (Cue the X-Files music: The Government is denying the cougars exist!) This decision was primarily for nerdy phylogeny reasons, though, because the eastern cougar probably never existed. But you won't find evidence of their existence in paw prints in the snow or a deer carcass in a tree. Part II. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. Can you look into this picture. So that did it for me. Having not found any evidence is not the same as saying there are no mountain lions, its the same as saying we dont know. Well let's hear from from Sue Morse again science director for the organization keeping track. She is renowned for tracking. Want to report a Mountain Lion sighting in New Hampshire? However, dispersing western mountain lions have left evidence as close as Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York. Want to put this to to Patrick Tate who may have heard some some info or info from listeners like you about these these these cats. Well let's talk a little bit about that. 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. So I want to start the program with a comment from someone who is not in the studio with us today. I can't tell you what you saw but it sounds like a mountain lion. But you've done some reporting on this. Have a photo. Enable JavaScript by changing your browser options, and then try again. Chapter X, Predators, Panther (Mountain Lion) From History of NH Game and Furbearers by Helenette Silver, Research Clerk, NH Fish and Game Dept. They don't know the direction they're going. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HD PR fine Peter Biello and today we're talking with folks who can tell us about the mysterious elusive mountain line and whether or not it is actually here in New Hampshire. Sam Evans-Brown: But I mean the video I had been sent was you know a recording of a animal growling but it was in slow motion and when I asked the person why is this in slow motion the denied that it was so there's a lot of weird stuff that happens in regards to people claiming they've seen they've seen these things. Sam Evans-Brown: I just want to say the bang and word you just heard I think to me exemplifies why it's really hard to come up with with positive you know 100 percent certain evidence that you've that what you've got is a mountain lions. And I think this is a really interesting story for a couple of reasons one is that it proves what Pat was saying which that basically from New York state where its traces was really picked up on a game camera around Lake George all the way down to Connecticut there was numerous. I would say that there's going to be the truth in here somewhere. So they're scary. Some of the reports that I looked into that were actually on file at the local fish and game office were even from people who did not live locally. I'm Peter Biello in for Laura NOI. But Absence of Evidence Is Not Evidence of Absence, Right? You know I'm like seriously I can't get a picture of the thing but what it what it is. That's pretty elaborate. So I did a bunch of research and all the documentation I found was there art are not any pieces of DNA of Eastern online. Support for an age PR comes from you our listeners. But if you were to get Western dispersing mountain lions just would just sort of expanding into New Hampshire. To date most of the pictures that have been sent in have been bobcats and other species Ive received pictures of house cats. Pat do they typically just move around a lot. We are the second most-forested state in the country, and those forests can be impenetrable snarls (part of why the Northeast is notoriously a difficult place to hunt deer), and while there are people in a lot of those woods, because the cats have been absent for a few generations now, most of those people dont know what a cougar scrape or latrine look and smell like. She was having a garden party on her back porch and everybody in the party saw this mountain lion across the field down below the porch. And that's this morning at 10:00 here on NH PR. It's got a a smudge of black and bobcats and links just don't have that we don't have any other cards. Okay. Peter Biello: Well John thanks very much for the story really appreciate it. On a dirt road. You need you need either a really good photograph or you need you know fresh scat that can be sent to a lab out West that can they can be identified there. Mountain lion or cat running across. Sam Evans-Brown: Certainly that is a thing I've heard but again you have to think of the incentives involved here. John if you're still on the line here I was going to I don't. Author of The last woman in the forest on Saturday July 13th at 7 p.m. at Warner town hall Warner historical dawg. So I just throwing that out there it's interesting. Peter Biello: They make great mascots at least. So Marty can you see what I'm getting at is the public sees different names and thinks that they're different animals but it's all the same animal. And then just up behind it you know at about 11 o'clock on one side and whatever that would be on the other side it's black. And when provoked no animal could stand before him elegantly put. He said matter of fact I do. Sandy Hodskins, owner of West Meadow Farm in Bradford, New Hampshire, took time from shoveling Wednesday to enjoy the snow with her horse, West Wind. New Hampshire Public Radio | Rick your thoughts. Listeners give us a call if you'd like. Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. Current conditions in New Hampshire would support a mountain lion, according to Tate, as forests have returned, allowing for prey species to become more prevalent. Mountain lions when they show up they leave evidence. I'm Peter B yellow. From involving members in projects as local as cleaning up an area park or as far-reaching as bringing sight to the world's blind, Lions clubs have always . Its actually fairly reasonable to believe that mountain lions do, at least, pass through occasionally. There's these animals aren't coming with a map saying oh I want to go here. That's the real story is they can't follow up on every one of these sightings. That's why we always go back to the physical evidence to support what they're reporting. It traveled all the way from from you know Minnesota to New York without being so seen Patrick take. Theres tracks everywhere. I've collected scat samples I've got several in my collection. The exchange is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio. 1957. It's not an emerging endangered species no work no there are there are populations in specific states so the Florida panther is is an endangered species that sub population is in fact listed under the Endangered Species Act. Sam Evans-Brown: And when we talk about subspecies this actually leads to to an interesting tangent which is that the field of biology recently has been sort of revolutionized by the use of DNA to determine what subspecies are. Yes. And as the biologist who's gonna stand on this and if I'm going to say this is a proven picture I need to be able to stand on it so soundly and have the evidence so I going to go through it with a fine tooth comb kept picking pieces apart trying to answer these pieces. We rely on readers like you to support the local, national, and international coverage on this website. It doesn't happen as much anymore. And they were using all the habitat. John. I don't see the hoaxes anymore at that level. They create these big latrines that are very obvious. And listeners this has been a lively conversation we're sorry we didn't get to all the the e-mailed comments and the phone calls your stories are appreciated even if we didn't get a chance to hear them today. So if you were to ask me has a mountain lion ever passed through New Hampshire and been spotted by somebody who wasnt able to get hard evidence? Id personally be willing to say "probably, yes.". Peter Biello: Nice to be here. Fish and Wildlife Service decided all of the cougars, pumas, and mountain lions in the country are actually the same species, and that species hasnt had a breeding population anywhere near the Northeast for at least 70 years. Peter Biello: Well I want to ask Patrick about one of these stories a few years ago you had a story about someone who claimed to. Let us know your story and share your photos. Its distinctive featurethe one that sets it apart from other North American wild catsis its tail, which is thick and often as long as its body. Peter Biello: Rick I believe you did mention that that they do leave carcasses up in the tree from time to time but are there any other species known in New Hampshire to do this on a regular basis. David Erler says some of them probably have. Peter Biello: Well hey Rob. Why are there so many false positives? To date, the Department has not received any verifiable evidence (photographic or DNA)of mountain lions existing in New Hampshire. The second story window through about 30 feet away from it. Your support makes this news available to everyone. Seems reasonable! There were several sightings in CT over the last few months. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all. I've actually had to walk in on one or two now and look at what was going on and figured out what was going on. Peter Biello: We at this e-mailed comment from Michael. Here it is. And just one more note about this danger question when even when you look at the states that have extended populations stable populations of mountain lions attacks are relatively rare. Fear for others and those two polarizing opinions on the situation is what I believe brings out mystique and Sam you know I take kind of a long view on this. So one thing I'll add we're talking about natural dispensers but talking with the conservation officer in the 1980s they recall going to a residence telling a person you can live here but your mountain lion can't. So try to take photographs if you see something like this. We actually have the largest subspecies of bobcat in the northern part of our state which they can get up to 40 and over 40 pounds which looks like an 80 pound the animal to visually and quite large. All of that remains unanswered but it is an extremely interesting question. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. No evidence and other states where Mountain lights have turned up. Peter Biello: And Carl before you continue I think Patrick Tate just give me a second. However if if and when it does happen it takes up a lot of resources looking at that situation and identifying what's going on because when you start out you don't know it's a hoax. We're going to talk a little bit more about habitat first but then we'll get into sightings. Patrick Tate: My line being a large predator a cat watch ambush his prey animal that hasn't been. Let's look for other evidence. Rick van de Poll: Oh yeah absolutely. I mean I that said I've lived out west for nine years. Mountain Lions are a mythical creature in New Hampshire with strong feelings on both sides of the question: are there Mountain Lions in New Hampshire? Let's talk to Mike in Webster. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction 3,207 views Jul 31, 2019 78 Dislike Share Save New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife 634 subscribers During my thirty-one career at the New. Give us a call if you have a question or comments or story about perhaps seeing a mountain lion here in New Hampshire. You've got you've got biologists right who are trying to make their make their way in the world make a career if you are the biologists who confirmed a sighting of mountain lions in the state that would be very good for you like you would be all over the news. The nonbelievers are going to say Show us your evidence and show us prove this to us. Rick van de Poll: Well the mountain lion of course has been sort of an enigma in the wildlife suite for years and years. Oh you saw him online. How far were you from this cat. HOLDERNESS, N.H. (AP) Two of the known mountain lions in New Hampshire have spent their 15 years in close proximity to humans. Now that to me seemed to indicate that they had done the secondary workup that in my opinion proved the existence of probably a disperse or possibly from South Dakota like the one in 2011. We've met Fish and Game's BURDEN OF PROOF. Let's talk to Bob in Laconia Bob. So for those reasons I don't believe the standards are too high the amount of game cameras out on the landscape to record images department alone through contracts had over 150 throughout the state biologists go through various deer yards throughout the year. Sam Evans-Brown: And second the evidence required is is you know pretty pretty tough to gather. Residents believe cougars still roam New Hampshire's forests. 1957. But having read a bit of information about his cougar there are a darker subspecies. Which which I think Pat and I have both experienced. Fish and Game then deny the evidence. And so so with their limited staff and limited budget that is that is more and more limited every year because you know fewer people are buying hunting and fishing licenses. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Mountain lions (especially males) have incredibly large ranges that they defend from rivals. Peter Biello: Hmm. I've seen him in the woods and that was not a bobcat but I was looking at. So let's let's go to the phones. They reported seeing the big tail and everything everything. Peter Biello: When did you allegedly see a mountain lion. Or years or so. If you missed part of today's program listen to the exchange. Email exchange it an HP fraud org or give us a call 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. And so I just wanted to share my share my experience with you guys and it was pretty awesome to see if you get to see one albeit it was in the brush. So before we get to the the the the stories of sightings we're getting a lot of calls. Less successful males roam further. Mountain Lion | Squam Lakes Natural Science Center All exhibit and hiking trails are CLOSED for the season. I wanted to get your thoughts on the mystique of the mountain lion start with you Rick. Sam Evans-Brown: So I just had two thoughts which is that we hear a lot of these stories and all of us here have heard these stories. And here we're talking about in this situation we're talking about it migrated from the West. There was no sign of it. If it's just in the middle of a greenfield you can't prove anything. Women control our lives. They get a lot of media attention but compared to the the amount of times that a mountain lion could attack a person but doesn't because they don't typically view us as prey. So maybe a good pet for you but not for your neighbor if you just stop by unannounced. The brother and sister big cats have lived . Peter Biello: So Patrick today Fish and Game no downward pressure on you to deny the existence at all costs of mountain lions here in New Hampshire. The trouble with accepting every reported sighting as a confirmed mountain lion is that there are so many mistaken identifications. Caller: Oh hi. Share. So Pat you field a lot of calls about people seeing or reportedly seeing mountain lions. Fish and Game looked into the labs to have them confirm the information in the reports which the labs did not. Sue Morse: First and foremost if you have color or if you could see details of color look at the front of the face around the Pumas muzzle the muzzle itself is pure white. So. Patrick Tate: And there's one other way to model that is the same animal. Patrick Tate: So the individuals can say that but for an agency that's based on science and what not to to go off with no evidence and then get into that giant debate and all these other issues and put credibility at risk I don't think that would be a great path to take. The book MAMMAL TRACKS & SIGN by Mark Elbroch has pictures of mountain lion scat found at a multiple beaver kill. When you talk about a bobcat Bobcat maybe 80 90 pounds and then a mountain lion could be between 130 and 180 pounds. Rick van de Poll: Absolutely. So there is definitely no downward pressure by anyone. Patrick Tate: In theory it's a passing ball of a court and it goes wherever the bottom Ball wants to go. And so maybe before I go to you recommend I ask you Patrick Tate is the standard too high. Peter Biello: Yeah. Erler is a senior naturalist at the Squam Lakes Natural Science Center in Holderness. Thank you for visiting the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department website. You know perhaps poke around where you saw it and see if you can find a track. In my New Hampshire career I have written several, and seen at least 20, stories along the lines of "local person thinks they saw a mountain lion but there's no actual evidence aside from. Patrick Tate: So one thing I'd say is DNA would definitely identify an animal animal's Mark line or not. I'll send it to you. Patrick Tate: So I'm not sure what subspecies of cat they're using to differentiate by those markings but once she was describing the White other face in the black. Hunting is legal, but closely regulated by the state. I have one that's more elaborate than that. This is not the same as saying that there has never been a mountain lion seen in New Hampshire. Pat what do you think the mystique of the mountain lion. It was really muscular looking cat I mean is that like a side angle to me. Because I mean as we've heard in the past 10 minutes like there's there's some disagreement or at least some some vagueness about what an actual mountain lion should appear like in the wild assuming we can even get close enough. About Us Media Kit Calendar of Events Volunteer Visit Learn Events Membership Support Your Visit BUY TICKETS Know Before You Go Directions and Information Our Animals Live Animal Exhibit Trail Hours and Admission Calendar of Events
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